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	<title>Comments on: USA Today takes the Environut Line on Forest Fires</title>
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	<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/</link>
	<description>Exposing the Fools in Media, Academia, the Left, and elsewhere</description>
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		<title>By: Don Le Messurier</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2695</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Le Messurier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2695</guid>
		<description>The address is: http://www.forestvoices.com/

Le Messurier</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The address is: <a href="http://www.forestvoices.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.forestvoices.com/</a></p>
<p>Le Messurier</p>
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		<title>By: Don Le Messurier</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2694</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Le Messurier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2694</guid>
		<description>Your &quot;review&quot; of the article is right on except that there is a difference between &quot;thinning&quot; and &quot;forest restoration&quot;.  The difference is important.  restoration is done not just to reduce fuel loads, but to create a healthy, SUSTAINABLE forest.  I&#039;m a supporter of Forest restoration and lay out my position in the web site referenced above.  Keep up this work.  It is important.

Le Messurier</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your &#8220;review&#8221; of the article is right on except that there is a difference between &#8220;thinning&#8221; and &#8220;forest restoration&#8221;.  The difference is important.  restoration is done not just to reduce fuel loads, but to create a healthy, SUSTAINABLE forest.  I&#8217;m a supporter of Forest restoration and lay out my position in the web site referenced above.  Keep up this work.  It is important.</p>
<p>Le Messurier</p>
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		<title>By: Randall Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2693</link>
		<dc:creator>Randall Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2693</guid>
		<description>John, Great post. One comment: the old natural fires that were lower temperature were actually fires that the trees had evolved to live thru. &lt;b&gt;Some species of trees even require the low temperature burn to release their seeds.&lt;/b&gt; So the prevention of natural burns has tipped the balance against those species that benefitted from the burns.

Therefore, if we don&#039;t want to have fires and yet if we still want to have forests that are more like natural forests we need to plant seeds for the tree species that need burns in order to release seeds and we need to cut back on the species that have gained advantage from the lack of fires.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, Great post. One comment: the old natural fires that were lower temperature were actually fires that the trees had evolved to live thru. <b>Some species of trees even require the low temperature burn to release their seeds.</b> So the prevention of natural burns has tipped the balance against those species that benefitted from the burns.</p>
<p>Therefore, if we don&#8217;t want to have fires and yet if we still want to have forests that are more like natural forests we need to plant seeds for the tree species that need burns in order to release seeds and we need to cut back on the species that have gained advantage from the lack of fires.</p>
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		<title>By: Tocq Magazine TocqLogBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2700</link>
		<dc:creator>Tocq Magazine TocqLogBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2700</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;To Protect and Burn&lt;/strong&gt;

Defending Enviro nuts in the face of disaster is an art form. But someone in Arizona knows how to do</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>To Protect and Burn</strong></p>
<p>Defending Enviro nuts in the face of disaster is an art form. But someone in Arizona knows how to do</p>
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		<title>By: tom scott</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2692</link>
		<dc:creator>tom scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2692</guid>
		<description>Just a little more to what the Other John Hawkins had to say.
This is from an old rant in my old website.  

During a forest fire in Washington state four young firefighters were trapped and requested a water drop from a nearby stream.  Discussion ensued, delaying the drop for several hours, while they pondered whether it was against ESA policy and would harm the fish in the creek.  The four young firefighters ultimately died.  An &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.missoulian.com/specials/fires2001/news/news-0925.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; investigation &lt;/a&gt; found that the delay was not &lt;i&gt;DIRECTLY&lt;/i&gt; responsible for their deaths. It should not have even been up for discussion whether the lives of fish took precedence over the lives of four young firefighters.
 
In addition to the instances that John mentioned let&#039;s not forget that it was the ESA concerns that led to the stoppage of the Klamath river irrigation which was responsible for hundreds of farmers losing their farms.

&lt;i&gt;On April 7, 2001, the federal Bureau of Reclamation decided to allocate nearly all the water in the Klamath Project for the benefit of suckerfish in Upper Klamath Lake, and for coho salmon in the Klamath River. The Bureau determined higher water levels in both bodies of water were necessary for the well-being of the allegedly endangered fish.&lt;/i&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=572&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;i&gt; THIRTY SECOND RESPONSE: How many more rural families must suffer like the farmers in the Klamath Basin before common sense and scientific evidence prevail? Man and animals can co-exist together without either species being harmed, but many environmental groups promote just the opposite. It&#039;s time the federal agencies consider the cost to human life and livelihood or humans, at least in some areas, will become an &quot;endangered&quot; species.&lt;/i&gt;  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalcenter.org/TSR20402.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a little more to what the Other John Hawkins had to say.<br />
This is from an old rant in my old website.  </p>
<p>During a forest fire in Washington state four young firefighters were trapped and requested a water drop from a nearby stream.  Discussion ensued, delaying the drop for several hours, while they pondered whether it was against ESA policy and would harm the fish in the creek.  The four young firefighters ultimately died.  An <a href="http://www.missoulian.com/specials/fires2001/news/news-0925.html" rel="nofollow"> investigation </a> found that the delay was not <i>DIRECTLY</i> responsible for their deaths. It should not have even been up for discussion whether the lives of fish took precedence over the lives of four young firefighters.</p>
<p>In addition to the instances that John mentioned let&#8217;s not forget that it was the ESA concerns that led to the stoppage of the Klamath river irrigation which was responsible for hundreds of farmers losing their farms.</p>
<p><i>On April 7, 2001, the federal Bureau of Reclamation decided to allocate nearly all the water in the Klamath Project for the benefit of suckerfish in Upper Klamath Lake, and for coho salmon in the Klamath River. The Bureau determined higher water levels in both bodies of water were necessary for the well-being of the allegedly endangered fish.</i> <a href="http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=572" rel="nofollow">link</a></p>
<p><i> THIRTY SECOND RESPONSE: How many more rural families must suffer like the farmers in the Klamath Basin before common sense and scientific evidence prevail? Man and animals can co-exist together without either species being harmed, but many environmental groups promote just the opposite. It&#8217;s time the federal agencies consider the cost to human life and livelihood or humans, at least in some areas, will become an &#8220;endangered&#8221; species.</i>  <a href="http://www.nationalcenter.org/TSR20402.html" rel="nofollow">link</a></p>
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		<title>By: Vox</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2699</link>
		<dc:creator>Vox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2699</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Profit is Evil&lt;/strong&gt;

John at Useful Fools find some useless fools ripe for dissecting. If any of you wonder about the massive wildfires we&#039;ve been having, this may help you understand. Steps can be taken to minimize the damage, but there is a chance that people might also ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Profit is Evil</strong></p>
<p>John at Useful Fools find some useless fools ripe for dissecting. If any of you wonder about the massive wildfires we&#8217;ve been having, this may help you understand. Steps can be taken to minimize the damage, but there is a chance that people might also &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Other John Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2691</link>
		<dc:creator>The Other John Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2691</guid>
		<description>I want to start a group:  STEFTIE.

Save The Environment From The Idiot Environmentalists.

-They don&#039;t want thinning because it&#039;s &quot;bad&quot; for the forests, and so forests die in severe fires.

-They don&#039;t want fish farms, because they&#039;re &quot;bad&quot; for the &quot;native&quot; fish, and so the native fish are over-fished to extinction by commercial fishing that only intensifies as the fish stocks go down (cause scarcity causes prices to go up).

-They misuse laws designed to protect the environment (such as the ESA) in order to stop behavior they don&#039;t like, and so ordinary voters begin to suspect environmental laws are not about the environment at all.

-They negotiate in bad faith with businesses engaged in natural resource industries (witness Coast Sea Foods&#039; conversion of it&#039;s Humboldt Bay Oyster operation to long-line methods) and so alienate the very people most able to make a positive difference.  

-They lie, misrepresent, and in general assume any means are okay for achieving their ends, thus setting the cause they advocate up for political failure with an American public that believes in fair play.

All this spells environmental disaster in the long run if we don&#039;t expose these freaks for the frauds that they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to start a group:  STEFTIE.</p>
<p>Save The Environment From The Idiot Environmentalists.</p>
<p>-They don&#8217;t want thinning because it&#8217;s &#8220;bad&#8221; for the forests, and so forests die in severe fires.</p>
<p>-They don&#8217;t want fish farms, because they&#8217;re &#8220;bad&#8221; for the &#8220;native&#8221; fish, and so the native fish are over-fished to extinction by commercial fishing that only intensifies as the fish stocks go down (cause scarcity causes prices to go up).</p>
<p>-They misuse laws designed to protect the environment (such as the ESA) in order to stop behavior they don&#8217;t like, and so ordinary voters begin to suspect environmental laws are not about the environment at all.</p>
<p>-They negotiate in bad faith with businesses engaged in natural resource industries (witness Coast Sea Foods&#8217; conversion of it&#8217;s Humboldt Bay Oyster operation to long-line methods) and so alienate the very people most able to make a positive difference.  </p>
<p>-They lie, misrepresent, and in general assume any means are okay for achieving their ends, thus setting the cause they advocate up for political failure with an American public that believes in fair play.</p>
<p>All this spells environmental disaster in the long run if we don&#8217;t expose these freaks for the frauds that they are.</p>
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		<title>By: American RealPolitik</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2698</link>
		<dc:creator>American RealPolitik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2698</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;EnvironMENTALists&lt;/strong&gt;

Picture via John Moore. Bilboard from AZFire.org - Fighting Irresponsible Radical Environmentalism In ARIZONA John has an excellent post up about how USA Today has handled the Bush administration&#039;s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>EnvironMENTALists</strong></p>
<p>Picture via John Moore. Bilboard from AZFire.org &#8211; Fighting Irresponsible Radical Environmentalism In ARIZONA John has an excellent post up about how USA Today has handled the Bush administration&#8217;s</p>
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		<title>By: Toren</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2690</link>
		<dc:creator>Toren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2690</guid>
		<description>You might be amused by a couple of posts I made last year on environuts and forest fires:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thesafetyvalve.com/archives/000053.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thesafetyvalve.com/archives/000067.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might be amused by a couple of posts I made last year on environuts and forest fires:<br />
<a href="http://www.thesafetyvalve.com/archives/000053.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a>, and <a href="http://www.thesafetyvalve.com/archives/000067.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dailypundit</title>
		<link>http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/2003/08/12/usa-today-takes-the-environut-line-on-forest-fires/comment-page-1/#comment-2697</link>
		<dc:creator>Dailypundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinyvital.com/blog/?p=219#comment-2697</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Burn, Baby, Burn&lt;/strong&gt;

I&#039;ve lived in both Colorado and California. Both states have vast forests, and are subject to huge fires. In both states, the frequency, fierceness, and destructiveness of forest first have been vastly increased by the feckless, stupid, and ignorant po...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Burn, Baby, Burn</strong></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve lived in both Colorado and California. Both states have vast forests, and are subject to huge fires. In both states, the frequency, fierceness, and destructiveness of forest first have been vastly increased by the feckless, stupid, and ignorant po&#8230;</p>
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