Why Didn’t We Hear This?
Sun December 21st, 2003 16:24 MSTIf one only read the Washington Post or the New York Times, you would get the information that years of diplomacy and sanctions led to the stunning surrender of Libya’s WMD program. You would not hear that Gadaffi stated that the war in Iraq was the deciding factor!
The New York Times at least credits the “urgency” to “American stances on Iran and North Korea and the war in Iraq” but titles its article “Secret Diplomacy Won Libyan Pledge on Arms.”
But the facts are given by the Italian Prime minister as reported in the Telegraph:
Col Gaddafi of Libya, […] said: “I will do whatever the Americans want, because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid.“
The conversion of two major newspapers to propaganda organs is truly stunning. The New York Times and the Washington Post are sliding into irrelevance because of their lack of honesty.
Thanks to Right-Thinking from the Left Coast.
UPDATE: In a conversation with Fox News, former arms inspector Hans Blix said that events in Libya showed that you can have a handover of WMD’s without going to war. Perhaps he read the New York Times instead of the Telegraph. But then, coming from Hans Blix, is it surprising that he should have this view?
Hey Hans… here’s a message for you: It DID take a war to get Libya to take this step. The Iraq War did indeed result in finding weapons of mass destruction and dangerous programs… just not in Iraq!
UPDATE: Safire points out the silliness of the “diplomacy did it” idiots.
It was indeed a victory for diplomacy, John…if, by diplomacy, you mean the 101st and 82nd Airborne Diplomatic Divisions.
French Relevance: A Contradiction in Terms
Steven Den Beste has a wonderful post about France’s difficulty in coming to terms with being shut out of the negotiations with Libya.  Apparently, French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie tried to insist that France had been in the loop about…
French Relevance: A Contradiction in Terms
Steven Den Beste has a wonderful post about France’s difficulty in coming to terms with being shut out of the negotiations with Libya.  Apparently, French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie tried to insist that France had been in the loop about…
There’s something to the notion that “when you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds are sure to follow”, but Col. Qadaffi (my spelling) has been trying to make nice nice and get back in the West’s good graces for years– hence the Lockerbie suspect turnover and the reparations.
And there may well be something to the Iraq war convincing Col. Q to come clean; of course, one must also note the possibility that the Iraq war and its buildup caused the Iranians and the North Koreans to accelerate their nuclear programs.
Al Capone may have said, “It’s easier to persuade someone with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word,” but the same statement applies to gangsters like Qadaffi.
Libya was working on this for years, well before 9/11 (Bush wasn’t interested in Iraq till after.) with steps like handing over the Lockerbie Bombers.
Oh and Libya’s WMD are about as much of a threat to us as Iraqs, that is not at all. Don’t get me wrong this is a good thing but it’s due to policies started by Regean and carried over to Bush Jr.
THe big difference is that American soldiers aren’t getting killed every day in Tripoli. I know you’re desperate to find some sort of justification of this stupid war and this ain’t it.
Libya’s main motive was the lifting of sanctions and the salvaging of their economy. It would have happened with or without Iraq.
Oh and let’s not forget before you get to warm and fuzzy about it, Qadaffi (what the hell is the proper spelling anyway?) is every bit as evil as Saddam. Some dictators you cozy up with some you don’t?
Apparently you are so desperate to show that the Iraq war produced no good that you failed to actually read the post you were responding to, wherre Gaddafi proves, by his own statements, that the Iraq war was the critical factor.
The fact that he diddled for 8 years meant that in the past he wasn’t serious. When South Africa decided to end its programs, it didn’t take any time at all.
Sorry. but your argument fails utterly.
As far as evil, we are dealing in the defense of our citizens. If that means we have to treat some nations differently than others, so be it. I don’t like coddling Qadaffi, but if it helps in preventing mass terrorism attacks against innocents, it is worth it.
Face it… the Qadaffi incident was a massive victory for the war on terrorism. It is too bad that this victory disappoints you, and you cannot acknowledge it, but Qadaffi not only switched sides (out of fear) but he also stabbed Iran, North Korea and Al Qaeda in the back, already having given us vast amounts of intelligence data on specific terrorists and agents of these powers.
Of course, even without Qadaffi’s actions, the war was clearly justified. Almost all major Democrats stated it was justified to go to war against Iraq when Clinton was in power, and then changed their tune a bit when Bush gained power, and then changed again when WMD’s were not found.
But don’t ask me if it was worth it, ask the Iraqi’s. Check out the blogs in my blogroll and you will find out how they feel. Or maybe you are one of those peaceniks who don’t care about the fact that in the last 2 years we have liberated 50,000,000 people from oppressive and vicious governments (even if that was not our primary purpose).
As A member of the U.S. Military I feel I should remind those reading this that the Taliban and the Iraq Government were both started with the backing of our Goverment. U.S. Politicians chose Osama and Sadam both. Now we are cleaning up the messes we made to deter our Cold War enemies so long ago. Watch Rambo 3 if you don’t remeber. The message at the end spells out the U.S. policy that started our current problems. The lazy way we acted towards these Governments since then made them think they had a chance. Yes the speed we took Iraq in this war scared every Nation in the World. The same fear that the U.S. inspired A hundred yers ago. Even Hitler feared the U.S.. He was furious over Japan’s attack at Pearl Harbor because it brought us directly against him. That fear has now been brought back and we should continue to use it in our War to slow down Terrorism. Try to remeber that Islam is not actualy the source but the Excuse of Terrorist groups. They would exist without Islam under different names. Israel has supplied plenty of terrorism with and without its armed forces. So just remeber we created these problems and now we are fixing them.
Sorry to disagree with someone with the same name as me, but when you say
“you failed to actually read the post you were responding to, wherre Gaddafi proves, by his own statements, that the Iraq war was the critical factor”
I think you make two assumptions… First, that Gadaffi really knows his motivations and second, that he is telling us the truth.
Well, his statements are highly consistent with the timing, so those are assumptions backed up by other evidence.
And in any case, the relatively few lack of cites of his statements indicates bias in reporting… an unwillingness to report a statement that is contrary to the favored wisdom of the chattering classes (including most reporters) - that it was merely a coincidence that he started serious negotiations when it became clear that we were going to attack Iraq, and he made major advances and went public with them after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.
Anyway, always good to hear from another John Moore. There really are an awful lot of us!
You guys need to do a better job distinguishing fact from fiction. The reason that Qaddafi has given an olive branch to the wicked West is that he wants to insure that his son will take over the Lybia when he dies. He knows that his he will need the support of the West if he is going to stay in power. I would also like to say that the United States was created via terrorism (the destruction of the North American Indian race, the Boston Tea Party, etc…), it’s economy was built on state terrorism (slavery, King Cotton, segregation, etc…) and is currently sustained through state sponsored terrorism (the threat of nuclear weapons, the support and installation of oppressive governments throughout the Middle East, South America and Africa, the development and deployment of the AIDs Virus, the exploitation of Africa and it’s natural resources like gold, coltan, rubber, copper, etc.) The US has supported state sponsored terrorism and corrupt governments like Mobutu, Pinocchio, The Shah of Iran, Zionist, Saddam, The Saudi Royal Family, White Cubans, etc. Qaddafi has supported so called terrorist groups like the IRA, PLO, ANC, etc, who are truly freedom fighters. He supported and gave weapons to the ANC (African National Congress) while the US and Israel were still supporting and giving WMD technology to the racist white South Africans regime. Clinton wanted Mandela to turn his back on Qaddafi but he refused because he knows who the real terrorist are. By the way, if Saddam had WMD, don’t you think that he would have used them? North Korea has WMD and has dared the US to do something about it. You guys need to do your research. Note: Qaddafi also refused to side with the West or the Russians during the Cold War.
Jacob
Given your massive, off-topic anti-US screed, why should we believe you have any concept of what happened in Libya.
Libya was indeed trying to get back in US good graces after Qadaffi’s vicious killing of the Pan Am 103 innocents. But he hadn’t actually done anything concrete until Saddam was pulled out of the cesspool. Then Qadaffi immediately caved, and told Berlusconi that he did so because he feared America. In other words, the Iraq war caused him to switch sides, which led to massive breakthroughs in combating nuclear proliferation when he betrayed those he had been working with.
As to the rest of your nonsense, I’ll waste a little time with your education:
I would also like to say that the United States was created via terrorism (the destruction of the North American Indian race, the Boston Tea Party, etc…),
Yeah, that Boston Tea Party was really scary, wasn’t it. What was the civilian casualty rate? 0?
Most North American Indians died as a result of disease that came with the original Spanish and British landings, but the US did indeed conquer the rest in imperialist war. That was over 100 years ago, so what is your point? But you really need to study the US a little more. Over a quarter of the state I live in is controlled by the “destroyed” “Indian race”, including Navajo, Hopi, Tonto O’odham, Apache and many other tribes. When I look out my window, I see the Salt-River Maricopa tribe’s land. My wife and daughter have American Indian blood from the Algonquins. Extermination? Hardly. It was Europeans who specialized in that – remember the holocaust? How about colonialism? The US only had one colony (the Philippines) which it took from Spain and granted freedom to longer before the rest of Europe was doing so. On the other hand, every inch of the Americas and most of Africa was colonized by Europeans.
it’s economy was built on state terrorism (slavery, King Cotton, segregation, etc…)
The United States spent 600,000 lives destroying slavery. Segregation was indeed evil, but we did away with that also. But to say the economy was built on these things is absurd, but what else should I expect, given the other silly charges you make below.
and is currently sustained through state sponsored terrorism (the threat of nuclear weapons,
Yeah, those nukes really make us a lot of money, don’t they? Just how do they sustain our economy?
the support and installation of oppressive governments throughout the Middle East,
Check your history. Which current “oppressive government” did we install in the Middle East? Name one. The nation which gets the most support, but which we did not create, is Israel, one of the few democratic governments in the area. It was a result of League of Nations and later UN mandates, not some US creation.
South America and Africa,
Uh huh… which ones again?
the development and deployment of the AIDs Virus,
Now this statement puts you clearly in the ranks of ignorant moonbats. Do you know where that silly rumor came from? It was planted by the KGB in 1985. Great connection to reality you have. See here and here. Do you have any knowledge of genetics or infectious diseases? Can you explain zoonotic without visiting a dictionary? Do you know the difference between HIV-1, HIV-2, and SIV?
the exploitation of Africa and it’s natural resources like gold, coltan, rubber, copper, etc.)
These days only the ideologically damaged and economically ignorant consider trade to be exploitation. By the way, what is coltan?? We mine copper right here in Arizona, along with gold. It is Europeans who needed those resources, not us.
The US has supported state sponsored terrorism and corrupt governments like Mobutu, Pinocchio, The Shah of Iran, Zionist, Saddam, The Saudi Royal Family, White Cubans, etc.
Pinocchio? That’s a good one. Zionist? Which government is that? Oh, you mean the only truly democratic country in the Middle East? Yeah, that’s nasty of us.
What the hell is a “White Cuban?” I know that Europeans and Canadians and others love to visit Cuba and prop up the aging but vicious dictator by paying to stay in his hotels and use his prostitutes, but even with that trade, the pathetic Cuban government has led Cuba’s economy into deep poverty. The excuse of the US embargo doesn’t explain it, either, since the rest of the world trades with Cuba. Singapore, a tiny speck of land with no natural resources, has a vastly better economy than Castro’s Cuba. Cuba’s GDP per capita has sunk to $2,700 while Singapore’s is $25,200. Oh by the way, did you know that Cuba locks up anyone with AIDS, along with any dissenters?
Qaddafi has supported so called terrorist groups like the IRA, PLO, ANC, etc, who are truly freedom fighters.
Yeah, “freedom fighters” that like to kill children and other innocent civilians. ANC invented necklacing, the delightful practice of putting an automobile tire around the neck of the victim, filling it with gasoline, and igniting it. However, of all the groups you mention, the ANC was at least fighting against a real evil. The rest are just butchers.
I’m sure you cheer when you see films like this (low speed) or this (high speed) or this (mpg). Just to be sure you get the picture, here (warning, extremely graphic) is what your “freedom fighter” PLO does to school childfrom the work of your heroic freedom fighters:
He supported and gave weapons to the ANC (African National Congress) while the US and Israel were still supporting and giving WMD technology to the racist white South Africans regime.
Oh, we gave WMD technology to South Africa? That’s funny, since we had an embargo on trade with them. But then given the quality of your other charges (such as the long disproven AIDS theory, why should this be any more credible?
Clinton wanted Mandela to turn his back on Qaddafi but he refused because he knows who the real terrorist are.
Right. A guy who blows up a plane full of innocent civilians is not a terrorist, is he?
By the way, if Saddam had WMD, don’t you think that he would have used them?
No, because it would have failed against the well prepared US, British, Polish and other troops. Saddam only used WMD’s against unprotected civilians and Iranian human wave attacks (where the Iranian soldiers – poorly armed teenagers – also had no protection). Furthermore, the US retaliation would have been total. Saddam, as we now know, expected to survive and regain power. He expected his allies, France and Russia, to stop the US from invading, or if we invaded, his guerilla warfare to return him to power. This is why, to this day, WMD scientists are being terrorized and murdered by Baathists in Iraq. This is why M14 set up it’s guerilla warfare organization before the war. This is why the most credible evidence shows that mass stocks of WMDs were sent to Syria before the war. They were of no use against us, EXCEPT in terrorist attacks.
Of course, with the huge amount of chemical weapons he had, he wasn’t able to get rid of all of them. You may not have noticed, but two fully operational weapons of mass destruction were used (not correctly) against US troops in the last month. One contained mustard gas. The other was a binary nerve agent shell (Sarin) that, used correctly, would have produced four liters of that deadly nerve agent. However, since it the two components failed to mix because it was not fired from an artillery piece (it’s intended use), only a small amount of Sarin was created when it’s small dispersal charge exploded, and hence only a couple of American’s had to be treated for nerve agent poisoning. However, in the hands of anyone that knew what they had and wasn’t a complete idiot, it could easily have been used to make 4 liters of Sarin – all that would have been required was to remove the two semi-inert agents (by drilling into the shell or removing filling plugs), and mixing them together. The result would have been enough to kill thousands. But I guess to you, Sarin, (a variety of “nerve gas, although it isn’t a gas) which was invented by the Nazis, is not a WMD.
Other WMDs and programs were found. An organophosphate pesticide plant was found with a camouflaged bunker nearby full of organophosphate pesticide. Would you care to explain why the pesticides were kept in a 6 feet underground camouflaged bunker? Perhaps a little knowledge of organophosphates would help you: all that was required to make a large amount of lethal Sarin or VX gas was slight reprocessing. Furthermore, any pesticide plant that makes organophosphates can make nerve agents.
Then there was the Bacillus Thuringensis operational plant. I’ll let you try to figure out its significance.
Of course the finding of labs in secret police safe houses must mean nothing to you. The botulinum bacteria ordered kept in a WMD scientist’s home refrigerator could have trivially been turned into many kilograms of the most dangerous toxins known to man (botulinum toxins) in any of those labs.
But in your mind, no WMD.
North Korea has WMD and has dared the US to do something about it.
Right. So we attack North Korea and they kill 10 million South Koreans in the first few hours of bombardment of Seoul (which is close enough to North Korea that you can see a North Korean flag from there – I know, I’ve been there). That’s with conventional weapons. If they used their large stocks of WMD’s, they could also kill many million more in Korea and Japan. Furthermore, North Korea has over 16,000 underground installations. Thus we would have to invade them to destroy the WMDs, since we don’t know which holes have what, and only ground burst nuclear weapons would destroy them. Ground burst nuclear weapons, unlike air burst, produce vast amounts of fallout over nearby areas out to hundreds of miles.
So you think we should attack them? Aren’t Europeans supposed to be more “nuanced” than Americans?
You guys need to do your research.
I’d say you need to do a lot more, given your pathetic attempts to paint the US as evil and the evil as good, to the point of misusing terminology and recycling old KGB stories long refuted by science.
Note: Qaddafi also refused to side with the West or the Russians during the Cold War.
So what? He killed thousands of innocents, including those on Pan Am 103. His existence is only allowed because we need his help to save more lives.
John,
Thank John for wasting your time with my “education.” You could have just blown me off and not responded, but you decided to open a big can of worms. I think that with a little research, you will see things a little differently. Now I am going to take you to school.
First of all, why are you so sure that Qadaffi, or Libya for that matter, were responsible for the bombing of Pan Am 103? You mean that you would never second guess the US media, which is controlled by forces like “Big Oil” and other big American corporations. , and government, which is controlled by big business and AIPAC? Sometimes I wonder if the US Israel’s puppet, or visa-a-versa. One thing that you need to realize about terrorism, weather it is state sponsored or not, it is used to intimidate and to influence. Libya had nothing to gain from the bombing of Pan Am 103. It was just an excuse mess with Libya.
Are you trying to say that there are plenty of Indians still alive in North America? If so, I think that it is crazy for you to bring up a small town, city or even state’s population of Native Americans without considering that all of the United States was populated by Native Americans. It is well documented that the Europeans settlers did not conquer the Indians via military force. They destroyed the Indians Nations via biological weapons such as venereal diseases, smallpox, the senseless extermination of the western plains food source, the buffalo, etc… Note: It was probably the first use of biological weapons in the history of man. Have you ever heard of the Battle (massacre) at Wounded Knee? Not only did they gun down woman, children, and old people, they also gave disease infested to freezing woman, children and old people. By the way, my grandmother’s father was Blackfoot.
Imperialism is just as bad a colonialism, and the United States has done some of the most horrible things that the human race has ever seen (i.e. the destruction of the North American Indians, keeping a race of people in bondage for almost 400 years, dropping WMD on two highly populated Japanese cities full of civilians, dropping napalm bombs on neutral Cambodia during the Vietnam War, burning villages and killing and raping woman, children and old people in Vietnam and the Philippines, etc…) European governments are no Saints, but they look like armatures compared to the United States when it comes to state sponsored terrorism and racism.
John, when did the US spend 600,000 lives in pursuit of destroying slavery?! Everybody knows to the American Civil War was fought over the fact that the south wanted to succeed from the Union and take it’s natural resources with it, which was King Cotton. African Americans were also hated and oppressed in the North, sometimes even more than in the south. France would not give the North any support unless they outlawed slavery, which also destroyed the south’s economy. As so far as segregation and equal rights is concern, the US was super late compared to almost ever country in this world, except for it’s good buddies Israel and South Africa. That is a stone cold fact! Racism is still alive and well in America.
Nuclear weapons make money for the US directly, and indirectly. The threat of nuclear weapons is used to force countries to go along with what the US wants or else. Call it influence and intimidation. The US also makes a lot of money selling nuclear weapons, biological weapons and arms in general throughout the world, including South Africa and Israel. Can you say Iran-Contra? Everybody, outside the US, knows that the US used Israel as a proxy to do business with South Africa after it said it would stop supporting the apartheid regime. Note: The US wanted South Africa to disarm itself of nuclear weapons after the white apartheid regime was dismantled, not before hand. I wonder why?
Do you want the short or the long list of the current oppressive regime that US has installed in the Middle East and Africa? The Saudi Royal Family, who are long time close friends of the Bush family, were put into power by the west. I can tell you the how, when and where if you would like to know. Israel is not considered a democratic state any place outside the US, because of how they have discriminated against and limited the rights of Arabs, and oppressed the Sephardic Jews, and Falasha living inside the Green Line and outside of it. Ask anybody from Europe, Asia, Africa, etc… Note: Iran is the only democratic system in the Middle East, even though, like in US, the system isn’t perfect. The vast majority of the people in the Middle East want a democracy system in there countries, but the US keeps puppets like Prince “Punk A**” Abdullah (Jordon), Hosni Mubarik (Egypt), Suddam Hessian (Iraq), the Shah of Iran, in power. By the way, the UN mandate that created the apartheid state of Israel was supported by the West only, not the rest of the world.
The CIA was directly involved with the installation of Mubuto in the natural resource rich Congo. Every precious mineral that you can think of, including oil, is in abundance in the Congo, and throughout the rest of Africa for that matter. The CIA was also responsible for the assassination of a democratically elected president, Allende, in Chile and the installation of one of the most ruthless dictator ever, Pinocchio. Allende wanted to nationalize the copper mines so that they people would benefit from the revenue of Chilean copper. Judging from your comment, you don’t have a clue who Pinocchio was. Have you ever heard of Mohammad Mossadeq? Mossadeq was the super popular, and democratically elected president of Iran. He also wanted to nationalize his countries major national resource, oil, and was overthrown by the CIA, which enturn installed one of the most diabolical dictators ever, Reza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran). I could go on for hours, and probably have already. I don’t even want to get into how the US assistant Lumuba and put the most ruthless dictator ever into power, Mobutu. US backed dictators like Mobutu, Pinocchio, the Shah of Iran, Baby Doc, Suddan Hussein, etc… You have a lot of research to do on the web after you read this, and it wouldn’t hurt for you to take some political science and history courses, and do some traveling outside the US.
I don’t think that you know the scope of the exploitation of natural resources in Africa and South America. The US needs coltan more than you realize! Coltan is used in cell phone, ipod, laptop and other small electronics. Coltan is able to hold a electrical charge and disburse heat almost instantly, which comes in handy when you are making a small electronics. It is the main cause the chaos and greed in Africa right now. There is a African “World War” going on right now over coltan. The West thirst for coltan is out of control and can’t get enough of it. You may want to delete your statement from this site after you find out what Coltan is used for.
You should really do some research on the state of race relation and morals in Cuba before Castro. I also think that you are getting pre-Castro mixed up with current Cuba. Why do you think that he has been in power as long as he has? In fact, he has been in power longer than anyone else on this Earth! Qadaffi has been in power since 1969 and maybe a distant second or third, who knows.
America hasn’t been guilty of killing children in Vietnam, the Philippines, Africa, Iraq, etc…? You have no idea what the US has and is doing in the world, do you? You need to stop watching FOX News. What about the sanction on Iraq? It only starved innocent children and old people. If the US really wanted to get rid of Saddam, they would have helped the Shiia, who are a majority in Iraq. But the US feared the Shiia. In fact the US installed Saddam to oppress the Shiia in the south and stop the spread of the Iranian Islamic Revolution next door, Iran, which resurrected democracy in the Middle East.
Do you have any idea what the white South African use to do to the black South Africans? You have no idea! Do you have any idea what the English use to do to the Irish? You have no idea. The Irish have been oppressed worse than African American slaves, and I am considered to be an African American. The PLO started off with good intentions, but now they are influenced too much by greed and their own agenda. HAMAS, for what it is worth, has very little corruptions, build hospitals, run social programs. Most importantly, they have the hearts and mind of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank because of what they stand for. Israel drew first blood and they are constantly killing Palestinian children, bulldozing the homes of Palestinians, etc… By the way, when African American were enslaved in the US, do you think that it would have fought back against the white civilians? Remember, it wasn’t illegal for a white person to kill an African American until the late 60’s.
Any more questions?
Thank John for wasting your time with my “education.” You could have just blown me off and not responded, but you decided to open a big can of worms. I think that with a little research, you will see things a little differently. Now I am going to take you to school.
Sounds fair enough to me.
First of all, why are you so sure that Qadaffi, or Libya for that matter, were responsible for the bombing of Pan Am 103?
I’m not sure. I think it might have been Iran. But I believe it was most likely Libya, as a retaliation for the 1986 bombing of Tripoli which killed Qhadaffi’s daughter. The Iranians also had motive: the unintended shootdown of their airliner by the USS Vincennes.
You mean that you would never second guess the US media, which is controlled by forces like “Big Oil” and other big American corporations.
If you have read many of my posts, you know that I consider the US media to be mostly a propaganda force for the left. Something you need to understand is that American journalists arrogated a role to themselves as “objective” observers which means that they specifically reject control by big companies. They are very serious about this, although in certain minor areas they will accept the control: specifically that affect their own employers directly. But in general, they are anti-Capitalist and do not represent the interests of “big oil” or other corporations.
, and government, which is controlled by big business and AIPAC?
That statement is both incredibly naive and remarkably oversimplified. I take it that you have a significant amount of Marxist background. But in any case, you really haven’t a clue what you are talking about.
First of all, there is no “US government” as a unitary phenomenon. The Executive Branch responds to external influences quite differently from the House which responds differently from the Senate. There are many different groups which exert influence, including religious groups, foreign governments, big business, big environmentalism (which has a huge amount of money to contribute), and individuals. For example, the Democratic Party is getting vast amounts of aid from the left wing billionaire George Soros. So your simple little Marxist model is simply wrong.
Sometimes I wonder if the US Israel’s puppet, or visa-a-versa. One thing that you need to realize about terrorism, weather it is state sponsored or not, it is used to intimidate and to influence. Libya had nothing to gain from the bombing of Pan Am 103. It was just an excuse mess with Libya.
One at a time: The US and Israel have shared interests. Neither is the puppet of the other. The US exerts influence on Israel primarily by controlling foreign aid money to Israel. Israel exerts influence through propaganda campaigns and the American Jewish Community. Democratic countries neither have puppets or are puppets. But thanks for bringing up that quaint word… it causes a bit of nostalgia for the simple days. See above for Libya’s very strong motivation to bomb Pan Am 103. The fact that you aren’t aware of this is pretty surprising.
Are you trying to say that there are plenty of Indians still alive in North America? If so, I think that it is crazy for you to bring up a small town, city or even state’s population of Native Americans without considering that all of the United States was populated by Native Americans. It is well documented that the Europeans settlers did not conquer the Indians via military force. They destroyed the Indians Nations via biological weapons such as venereal diseases, smallpox, the senseless extermination of the western plains food source, the buffalo, etc… Note It was probably the first use of biological weapons in the history of man. Have you ever heard of the Battle (massacre) at Wounded Knee? Not only did they gun down woman, children, and old people, they also gave disease infested to freezing woman, children and old people. By the way, my grandmother’s father was Blackfoot.
More trash. I know well the history of American Indians, having grown up in the Southwest which is still populated by many. Your documentation is incorrect, but that is hardly surprising. There were indeed many indians killed by diseases imported by Europeans - in fact vast numbers. That, however, was not done via biological warfare (with one known exception - when a British commander distributed smallpox infected blankets to Indians, but then another British commander did the same thing to the US Army in Canada. The Spanish, which brought the diseases, had no idea that they were using biological warfare. In fact, the conquest of the Indians was a far more complex story.
By the way, before we came, they were busily killing each other. The Aztecs, who ruled Mexico when the Spanish arrived, were a very brutal group. They subjugated tribes all around them, and sacrificed the members of those tribes for religious reasons - and they used very large numbers of sacrifices. Now being a lefty, you probably believe in the myth of the noble savage. It’s nonsense. The reason the Spanish were able to conquer the Aztecs (population around a million) with a few hundred men was because the subjugated tribes joined the Spanish in the attack.
The plains Indians were so fierce that the buffalo only survived because there were large regions of conflict where hunting was too dangerous, hence allowing the buffalo to travel without being hunted. You utter lack of historical knowledge is shown by claiming that the accidental introduction of disease into the American population was “probably the first use of biological weapons in the history of man.” You are remarkably ignorant if you believe that. During the dark ages, it was a common practice to use catapults to launch corpses of those killed by plague into beseiged cities in order to defeat the enemy using the plague. There were earlier uses of biological warfare, but that is enough to establish how little you know.
The buffalo, of course, were not exterminated - another of your incorrect facts. But inspite of your lies and nonsense, I am not going to claim that the conquest of native Americans was humanitarian. There were a number of very bad things done, one of the more famous of with was Wounded Knee. Of course, you don’t mention what the Indians did to settler families, which was extremely gruesome. And so what if your you have a bit of Blackfoot in you. Does that make you special? My wife and daughter are part Algonquin. Big deal. Here in Arizona, the Apache were hated by all other tribes because of their viciousness. Today we have about 30 Indian tribes just in this state. Extermination? Hah! Over one quarter of our state is owned by Indians.
Imperialism is just as bad a colonialism, and the United States has done some of the most horrible things that the human race has ever seen (i.e. the destruction of the North American Indians, keeping a race of people in bondage for almost 400 years, dropping WMD on two highly populated Japanese cities full of civilians, dropping napalm bombs on neutral Cambodia during the Vietnam War, burning villages and killing and raping woman, children and old people in Vietnam and the Philippines, etc…) European governments are no Saints, but they look like armatures compared to the United States when it comes to state sponsored terrorism and racism.
Again, extremely highly unbalanced. Yes, the US (along with the rest of the world) engaged in slavery in some states. Yes, we saved millions of lives through our use of WMDs. My Japanese sister in law would not exist today if we had had to invade the islands. Do you have any idea at all how the Japanese fought in World War II? From the rest of your ignorance, I doubt it. Do you know why we fought the japanese? Do you know ANYTHING that is correct? Well… further down the page, it turns out that you do have a few facts correct… not many, but a few.
As for your charges about Cambodia, again you are clueless. Lon Nol took over the Cambodian government. At the time, Prince Sihanouk had been allowing the North Vietnamese to use eastern Cambodia for its supply lines and resting areas. That is not the act of a neutral nation. When Lon Nol took over, he asked the US to fight the communists in his land. We did so. As far as “killing and raping women, children and old people in Vietnam” - that is a vicious lie. A very vicious lie. What the hell do you know about it? Did you read it in the same book that gave you the false facts about biological warfare? And the idea that European governments look like armatures (a particular way to look at things, since an armature is part of an electric motor), you are again way off course. Who do you think started the Vietnam War? It was a result of a vicious French occupation, which they tried to resume at the end of World War II. The United States has done some bad things in the past, but so has every other government in the world.
It would appear to my, by your utter lack of balance and extremely poor knowledge of history, that you hate the United States just because you like to hate us. You blame us for all manner of wrong in the world. You fail to mention who were were fighting or what they did. In other words, you are spreading (incompetently) propaganda, not rfacts.
Just out of curiosity, how old are you and where did you learn these “facts?”
John, when did the US spend 600,000 lives in pursuit of destroying slavery?! Everybody knows to the American Civil War was fought over the fact that the south wanted to succeed from the Union and take it’s natural resources with it, which was King Cotton.
Bullshit. Everyone who studies anti-American history knows it. Those of us who look at things more carefully know that the South seceded because of the North’s objection to slavery and for economic issues, and the North fought to get it back. But if it had just been about King Cotton, then why did we free the very slaves who made King Cotton so profitable? Your argument is internally inconsistent, and slanders the very large number of Northerners who did indeed fight to free slaves, and those who, before the war, advocated the war and ran the “underground railway” to bring escaped slaves into the north and to freedom.
African Americans were also hated and oppressed in the North, sometimes even more than in the south.
African Americans were not treated with equality in the North at that time. But they were not slaves. They eventually got their equality. It took too long, but it happened.
>i>France would not give the North any support unless they outlawed slavery, which also destroyed the south’s economy. As so far as segregation and equal rights is concern, the US was super late compared to almost ever country in this world, except for it’s good buddies Israel and South Africa. That is a stone cold fact! Racism is still alive and well in America.
This doesn’t even deserve a response. Slavery was ultimately destroyed in the west by the US and Britain. France’s colonials were treated like slaves. And racism is alive and well all over the world. It is part of human nature. But in America, we fight it. In France, they are persecuting Jews. By the way, I don’t hear you complaining about the Sudan. The Arab north has killed 2 million blacks in the south over the last 30 years, and to this day has an active slave trade. They raid villages in the south, killing all the blacks who are not suitable slave material. The slaves they take back north. The males are castrated. Males and females are sold for cash. This is happening today. Right now. As you read this, slaves are being rounded up, slaves are being raped, slaves are being murdered. Right now, not 150 years ago. Why don’t you go complain about that rather than something that part of the US did 150 years ago?
Nuclear weapons make money for the US directly, and indirectly. The threat of nuclear weapons is used to force countries to go along with what the US wants or else. Call it influence and intimidation. The US also makes a lot of money selling nuclear weapons, biological weapons and arms in general throughout the world, including South Africa and Israel. Can you say Iran-Contra? Everybody, outside the US, knows that the US used Israel as a proxy to do business with South Africa after it said it would stop supporting the apartheid regime. Note The US wanted South Africa to disarm itself of nuclear weapons after the white apartheid regime was dismantled, not before hand. I wonder why?
Why do I even bother. The United States has never, ever sold a nuclear or biological weapon. Once again, I hear you appeal to “Everyone knows” - Everyone is not a valid source. You are so full of nonsense I do wonder why I respond. I won’t bother to refute your nonsense in detail. Rather, I will challenge you to prove it. “Everyone knows” is not proof. In fact, citing it is a sign of ignorance.
Do you want the short or the long list of the current oppressive regime that US has installed in the Middle East and Africa? The Saudi Royal Family, who are long time close friends of the Bush family, were put into power by the west. I can tell you the how, when and where if you would like to know.
Yeah, tell the how, when and where, because I know the truth from my Saudi friends and my brother, who used to live there. Good luck.
Israel is not considered a democratic state any place outside the US, because of how they have discriminated against and limited the rights of Arabs, and oppressed the Sephardic Jews, and Falasha living inside the Green Line and outside of it. Ask anybody from Europe, Asia, Africa, etc…
This is laughable. It is crap. I really don’t care if other people don’t consider Israeli a democratic state, because anti-Semitism is so rampant. I know how Israel works, and I know that it is at least as democratic as the EU. Israeli Arabs have the right to vote and hold seats in the Knesset. Show me an Arab state where Jews are even allowed to live, much less vote (hint, I do know of ONE - can you guess which one it is?)
Note Iran is the only democratic system in the Middle East, even though, like in US, the system isn’t perfect.
Well, I see the Mullahs have fooled you. That’s easy to do. Iran is as democratic as the old Soviet Union. All final decisions in Iran are made by the religious leaders. None of them were elected. Iran has a secret police which arrests those who even demonstrate against it (Israel does not). The people of Iran hate their government and want the United States to help them overthrow it. I know this both from our news media and from Iranian friends. Where is your source about this supposed democracy? And if it’s so democratic, why do their secret police round people up and kill them for merely demonstrating? Are you aware that there have been mass demonstrations against the government of Iran in the last few months? Are you aware that university students have been executed for participating in them?
The vast majority of the people in the Middle East want a democracy system in there countries, but the US keeps puppets like Prince “Punk A**” Abdullah (Jordon), Hosni Mubarik (Egypt), Suddam Hessian (Iraq), the Shah of Iran, in power. By the way, the UN mandate that created the apartheid state of Israel was supported by the West only, not the rest of the world.
More crap. Yes, we are happy to help Abdullah maintain power. He is a benevolent monarch. We certainly never helped keep Saddam in power (we did help him fight the fanatics in Iran, and we helped those fanatics fight Iraq - that was part of the beauty of Iran Contra). Israel was not created as an apartheid state. You seem to have forgotten that the Arab powers warned Arabs within Israel at its founding to get out, so that they wouldn’t be caught in the resulting slaughter as those Arab countries, without provocation, attacked Israel. Fortunately, the Arabs were very incompetent and the Israelis were able to fight them off (with NO military help from the US). Israel was attacked several times since then, and they took the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the attacks. By the laws of war, they could annex those lands, but they don’t want to. They are interested in peace. The Palestinians, who could have had the west bank and gaza long ago, have refused to accept any offer that will allow Israel to continue to exist. Instead they launched the second Intifada, which consists of shooting Israeli children in their beds, blowing up buses, and generally killing civilians - as many as they can.
The CIA was directly involved with the installation of Mubuto in the natural resource rich Congo. Every precious mineral that you can think of, including oil, is in abundance in the Congo, and throughout the rest of Africa for that matter.
True. The communists had their own candidate. Have you ever heard of the Cold War? The KGB? The GRU?
The CIA was also responsible for the assassination of a democratically elected president, Allende, in Chile and the installation of one of the most ruthless dictator ever, Pinocchio.
Good grief, pinocchio was not a real person, he was a wooden puppet. Can’t you get anyting right?. Pinoche was installed. He doesn’t even come close to “one of the most ruthless dictator ever.” Yes, he killed about 3000 people. Just as Allende was planning to do. But Pinoche actually gave up power voluntarily once the communists (of which Allende was one) were defeated. No communist dictator has ever given up power voluntarily. On average, communist dictators killed 10% of the population of whatever country they took over. Stalin alone killed tens of millions. Mao killed even more. Pol Pot killed the greatest percentage of his people, but the current government of Sudan has killed about the same percentage and is doing it today.
Allende wanted to nationalize the copper mines so that they people would benefit from the revenue of Chilean copper. The word “nationalize” is a euphemism for “steal.” Countries which nationalize assets provided by others find themselves without any future investment. Why invest in a country that is going to subsequently steal your property? But I don’t expect you to understand property rights.
Judging from your comment, you don’t have a clue who Pinocchio was.
No, you simply don’t know how to spell the name of the man who took over from the communist Allende.
Have you ever heard of Mohammad Mossadeq? Mossadeq was the super popular, and democratically elected president of Iran. He also wanted to nationalize his countries major national resource, oil, and was overthrown by the CIA, which enturn installed one of the most diabolical dictators ever, Reza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran). I
The thing that is missing from your entire silly narrative is the context: the cold war. You never admit that the USSR, with the brutal KGB, was engaged in every one of the conflicts you have listed. You also seem to have forgotten that everyone one of these occurred 50 years ago, making them rather irrelevant. You are an America hater, pure and simple. Your post has no example of balance or understanding of historical context. All you have is charges - some true (but out of context) and some laughably false.
could go on for hours, and probably have already. I don’t even want to get into how the US assistant Lumuba and put the most ruthless dictator ever into power, Mobutu. US backed dictators like Mobutu, Pinocchio, the Shah of Iran, Baby Doc, Suddan Hussein, etc… You have a lot of research to do on the web after you read this, and it wouldn’t hurt for you to take some political science and history courses, and do some traveling outside the US.
Diarhea sometimes takes quite a while to cure.
Oh, and I don’t need to take those courses. I was around for much of what you describe, and have read plenty. I was in Vietnam. I was also in East Berlin and watched the people enjoying their communist paradise. I know the lies of the left, because I have first hand personal experience that contradicts many of them.
I suggest that you need to read some history books by someone other than the bitter Marxists who inhabit many of the universities of the world.
I don’t think that you know the scope of the exploitation of natural resources in Africa and South America. The US needs coltan more than you realize! Coltan is used in cell phone, ipod, laptop and other small electronics. Coltan is able to hold a electrical charge and disburse heat almost instantly, which comes in handy when you are making a small electronics. It is the main cause the chaos and greed in Africa right now. There is a African “World War” going on right now over coltan. The West thirst for coltan is out of control and can’t get enough of it. You may want to delete your statement from this site after you find out what Coltan is used for.
This is horseshit. What you are referring to is a raw ore that is used to extract tantalum, used in electrical capacitors. It cannot hold an electric charge and it cannot “disburse” heat almost instantly. It is a rock. The tantalum is what is valuable, and you don’t even understand that. As an electrical engineer, I know a bit more about this than you do. As to natural resources, there are many in Africa. Have you heard of blood diamonds? The little problem with your blather is that the US isn’t causing any wars in Africa. It is the African countries themselves who are warring (actually, usually tribes in the countries whose borders were drawn by the European colonists with little regard for ethnic lines), with some help from the French. The Congo was a Belgian colony, not US. When the African countries were given their freedom from colonialism, most of them created brutal kleptocracies. Do you really think the CIA’s actions in the 1950s are behind the mess in the Congo today? If so, you are delusional. Do you remember the USSR and it’s subversion of Angola, another rich source of resources?
There is only one reason you blame the US for the mess in Africa - because you want to.
You should really do some research on the state of race relation and morals in Cuba before Castro.
Why?
I also think that you are getting pre-Castro mixed up with current Cuba. Why do you think that he has been in power as long as he has?
Because he brutally suppresses dissent, which is why there are so many Cubans now living in Miami. Please explain why people risk their lives on inner tubes and little rafts to get to Florida if Castro is such a great guy?
In fact, he has been in power longer than anyone else on this Earth! .
Which is why Cuba is one of the poorest nations on earth. I suppose you are going to tell me that Castro is still in power because the people love him so. In that case, why have so many fled, and why do they still risk their lives every day to get out of the Cuban socialist paradise?
America hasn’t been guilty of killing children in Vietnam, the Philippines, Africa, Iraq, etc…? You have no idea what the US has and is doing in the world, do you? You need to stop watching FOX News.
America has never targetted children. When there are wars, innocent people are always killed. That happened in Vietnam, but not by intent. You need to grow up, understand the context of the world, and stop lecturing me about things I know far more about that you will ever know. That you should lecture me about Vietnam is absurd. I know a whole hell of a lot about Vietnam, and you’ve probably never even been there.
What about the sanction on Iraq? It only starved innocent children and old people.
Once again, your utter cluelessness shows. The sanctions failed because Saddam stole the money, which he arranged by bribing the UN officials, French officials and the Russians. Why do you think over 40 palaces were built during the sanctions. Why do you think France and Russia refused to back the invasion? The Oil for Food program is the biggest financial scandal in history, involving $100 billion.
Children didn’t starve, by the way, but they did go without adequate medical care. The reason was that Saddam kept the money for himself, and since they were being well bribed, the UN officials responsible for the distribution looked the other way as the money for medical supplies was stolen.
US really wanted to get rid of Saddam, they would have helped the Shiia, who are a majority in Iraq. But the US feared the Shiia.
You live in such as simple world. In 1991, the world did not to get rid of Saddam. It wanted to get rid of his WMDs.
In fact the US installed Saddam to oppress the Shiia in the south and stop the spread of the Iranian Islamic Revolution next door, Iran, which resurrected democracy in the Middle East.
Perhaps you should read a little Iraq history. We did not install Saddam. In fact, when Saddam came to power, Iran was an ally of ours, run by the Shah of Iran, whom we later kicked out of power.
Do you have any idea what the white South African use to do to the black South Africans? You have no idea!
Do you always answer your own questions. Why should I care what the white South Africans used to do? They don’t do it now.
Do you have any idea what the English use to do to the Irish? You have no idea. The Irish have been oppressed worse than African American slaves, and I am considered to be an African American.
Do you have any idea of my ancestry? Does the name “Moore” ring a bell? It’s Irish, you idiot, and it’s my last name. And yes, I am quite familiar with the issues with Ireland. But nobody was oppressed worse than slaves (although the slaves in the Sudan today are oppressed worse than slaves were in America, but I haven’t heard you condemn the Sudanese). But go ahead and babble.
By the way, why in the world do you bring up Ireland?
The PLO started off with good intentions, but now they are influenced too much by greed and their own agenda.
The PLO was started by an Egyptian trained by the Bulgarian intelligence agency at the behest of the KGB - Yassir Arafat. His good intentions were to slaughter all of the Israelis. He isn’t himself a Palestinian.
HAMAS, for what it is worth, has very little corruptions, build hospitals, run social programs. Most importantly, they have the hearts and mind of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank because of what they stand for.
I think every one of them should be killed. They have no respect for life. They intentionally kill Israeli children. They are butchers. They get the hearts and minds of the Palestinians because the culture there has turned insane, and they build hospitals, etc, so they can ultimately get control when the PLO falls apart.
I have no respect for terrorists, and if they call themselves freedom fighters, they are still terrorists. They have killed innocent Americans and innocent Israelis. They are evil.
Israel drew first blood and they are constantly killing Palestinian children, bulldozing the homes of Palestinians, etc…
You really are a stupid bastard, aren’t you. You haven’t a clue about what happens in Israel and Palestine. You have no idea who does what to whom and why. But then I had figured that out a long time ago.
By the way, when African American were enslaved in the US, do you think that it would have fought back against the white civilians? Remember, it wasn’t illegal for a white person to kill an African American until the late 60’s.
It has been illegal for anyone in America to kill anyone else in America since the end of the civil war (other than in defense). Once again, you produce idiotic facts. You might also be interested to know that half of all murders in the United States are committed by the 12% of Americans who are black, and their victims are themselves almost all black.
You might as well blame that on us too.
Rarely have I debated as uninformed a person as you. You are so ignorant it is astonishing. I am most curious as to where you came by the ignorance? Schools? Which ones and at what level in what country? Organizations? Which ones? Reading? What?
I’m genuinely curious how a person who is capable of reading and writing can be so poorly informed.