I want to thank John for this great site. I was referred to this site by my friend Pat in London, Ontario – who is a fellow storm chaser.

I wanted to give some insights into some of the reasons I came here, and add to the commentary about “fair weather” citizens. Obviously, the economics played a big role. But more imporantly, cultural and value issues – in the broadest sense, played a big role. Canada is more European in this respect, with an entrenched elite and a top down attitude towards a plethora of issues. I love America because it is based on the premise of self government. The citizenry has the right to bear arms. In Canada, the elites do not believe the masses can be trusted with this. In America, the citizenry can vote on ballot initiatives, bond issues, and what not. There is a broad sprectrum on how the populace lives throughout this great nation, and people have the choice here to live in areas that are more congruent with their values. This option is not available to me in Canada. The political system in Canada is set up in such a way whereby the people do not have a say in how they live their lives. Canada’s history has been whitewashed with politically correct hogwash. Today, we should be celbrating Canada’s contribution to freedom. Canada once had the fourth largest navy and standing army in the world. Now after 40 years of UN hugging, the Canadian armed forces is such a shell that soldiers have to go to food banks to support themselves and half the air force is grounded as they are scavanged for parts. On this day, we can see the values gulf between the two countries – America still values freedom, and cherishes it, while too many Canadians take it for granted as that country slouches towards irrelevance.

The beauty of this country is that “blues” can live in their part of the country, live their lives as they see fit, and “reds” can do the same, with neither really bothering the other. The federalist system is the embodiment of the “good fences makes good neighbours” creedo. Really, how many things does the federal government do that impact our lives that drastically. If we can keep as many of these issues on a state and local level, then hopefully the animosity wil subside, and we can live our lives as we see fit.

Let’s me offer my straight forward honest observation…

First of all, 98% of the bluster about leaving for Canada is just that, bluster. Don’t take it too seriously.

I buy that and I give you the benefit of the doubt using 98% as a way to emphasis your point. It should not cause any problem in any normal conversation unless following by a provoking statement then the benefit of the doubt have been yanked immediately (why trust this person)

Secondly, I think the group of you have run into a little hypocracy here. A person’s patriotism comes from a sense of shared values. Once your countrymen no longer share your values, you will likely feel little allegience toward them or your nation (some folks have a foolishly low threshold).

You project a lot especially coming from one valid premise “A person’s patriotism comes from a sense of shared values” to a wrong conclusion “Once your countrymen no longer share your values, you will likely feel little allegience toward them or your nation (some folks have a foolishly low threshold”. No one here asks any sore losers to leave unless the loser threaten to leave first. When they threaten to leave, they have forfeit the share value, the trust between them and us, especially the “us” here many are veterans who treasure honor and comradery. Ironically such comment should be directed at those sore losers threatening to leave at the first place.

3) I consider myself a part of this group. That doesn’t mean I agree with them all the time, like the way they debate all the time or the way, they approach the debate. Sometimes, I hope them cooling down a bit for they might cause unnessarily roughness (wow- football season) But I know them from a veteran forum so I give them a lot of benefit of the doubt and sometimes their roughness is good to some SOB who their mindset can only be changed when facing the beheaders. Between them and someone who came in to ask others should be tolerant and share values then provoke them by claiming “I think the group of you have run into a little hypocracy here” and doing what? making a lousy mistake tarring everyone with the same broad stroke, employed a lousy logic to draw a false conclusion, to a point that a so important person and so intelligent person (the message of self-image is delivered within the same sentence) feels not so impress. Who is the lost soul here? Who is the hyposcrisy here claiming tolerant at the same time provoking the others?

3) Mitch makes his choice like I made mine. I don’t think Canada is Stalin of the West and I am sure that Canada did not employ tanks against their citizen like certain American liberal president administration. I didn’t hear any conservatives nor someone in between threaten to leave America then and I think they understant your point correctly then. The liberal did not threaten to leave then even though they are the most loud mouth snob against things less worse than that scale. Why not then but now? Because a liberal is a President or because principle is a matter of convenience?

4) The blog is pretty nasty, John. I’m not impressed.

Am I impressed with your comment? Logically not. And I do not think you are rational neither reasonable. So don’t let the door hit you in the butt.

Auf Wiedersehen, John
and Semper Fi

Mark

I wasn’t aware that my response was ad homina. I responded to Mavis’ post. And BTW Mavis, my spelling police certficiate is only used when the poster comes aboard with a measure of condescension, unfounded accusations, and no defense for either one.

A) I take seriously a group of Americans who wish to leave the country because they lost an election. This is not a trivial issue, even if you think it is.

B) I take seriously the charge of hypocrisy. Our welcome to Mitch was based on his disappointment not with his country’s values, but with the advance of statism, the nanny state, a decayed national health care system, quality of life and high taxes, among other things. These are not “value” issues, they’re practical issues. I’m sure Mitch misses his country.

C) There is no moral or practical equivalence between the liberal temper tantrum in (A) with the considered decision in point (B).

D) Your inflamed response to me in your second post was a little over the top. So I would suggest that you’re possessed of a little intolerant rage of your own.

You can land here and accuse us of (1) nastiness and (2) hypocrisy, state your scorn (3) for the blog while offering a shallow explanation for neither, and when called upon it you hit the ceiling. This is consistent with the usual arrogance of liberals who wish to pontificate without being challenged.

E) Yes, I have little patience for stock explanations delivered in Early School Marm about what constitutes patriotism and values. You can also look up “cipher” and discover a meaning you don’t understand (Webster’s def 1.b.), my little angry pedant of The Left. “Incest?” “Political xenophobia?” “Rational thoughts turned to mush”? I see it’s deadly to question Mavis Beacon.

You also used the term “value” to specify moral preferences, which is not synonymous with “quality”, which in my usage referred to a state of mind, which was apparently lost on a person drenched in a indestructible state of self-righteousness and importance.

Patriotism, to me, is a deep and pervasive mood of affinity with one’s country, including but not limited to “values”. Affinity with its history, it’s present and future, its people. It includes a connection to your origins and parentage, it includes a blood connection, a connection made through loss and gain, through war and peace, sacrifice, through love for ALL Americans whatever race, religion or culture.

It’s a love for your town, for your state, for the landscape, for all the indefinable ingredients that make up a life. It’s the willingness not to take your country right or wrong, but if she’s wrong, to make her right again. What’s the use.

Don’t go, Mavis. If you have more to say, say it. I won’t argue with you anymore because I am leaving this blog.

Mark

We are no longer in the situation we were when we were running our vets against Kerry here. Hence I would appreciate it if you could hold off the ad hominem attacks as much as possible. We had a liberal poster who was willing to speak reasonably. No point in driving her off with ad homina.

In his birthday message to Marines this year, the Commandant, Gen. Mike Hagee, related a story about a Marine who had been wounded in Iraq earlier this year. A squad leader, he refused evacuation until he finally passed out from a loss of blood. When he woke up in an Army hospital in Germany, he talked the staff into releasing him. He borrowed some utilities from a Navy corpsman and then talked his way aboard an Air Force transport that was flying back to Iraq. But before boarding the plane, he called his wife to tell her that he was O.K. but that he wouldn’t be home because the Marines in his squad needed him. As the old question goes, where do we find such men?

This is why the left lost they just don’t get it.

Semper Fi, y’all

Mark

You don’t quarrel with any of the substance of my definition for patriotism. My definition was and remains a suggestion. If you have another definition I’d be interested to hear it. If not, calm that bulging vein on your forehead save the criticism for a liberal who actually said something you find offensive.

Dissension and vulgarity are not one and the same. I have no fears of disagreement and I can even stomach your intolerant rage if you’re willing to try and respond to my arguments. If not, you’re right, expel the infidels/Democrats!

At last you, inadequately, try and respond to my point. You replace the world “value” with “quality,” my little Maureen Dowd of the angry right. Then you claim Mitch fled tyranny and liberals are fleeing freedom. Makes sense when you repeat it over and over again until rational thoughts are turned to mush. I’m sure Mitch escaped one of Paul Martin’s death squads by hiding in a mass grave for several days until he could drag his way to the safety of America. Either that or he was upset with the healthcare plan. Same thing though.

As long as we’re criticizing pedantically, your use of the word cipher stretches poetic license to its limit and it is clear you haven’t a poetic flair. In other words, chew a fatty.

John, you keep marvelous company. I hope you all enjoy your political xenophobia and incest. Congrats Rhod, another victory for intolerance, I won’t be back to your blog. But don’t for a second think a little nastiness entitles you to my country!

Now thats original.
You have nerve to criticize Mitch for coming to the shining city on the hill, Which is typical of someone born here and taught to appreciate nothing and to expect a government handout.

Kudos to Mitch for having the guts for leaving an oppressive nation, like the Canada or the Soviet Union

Your not impressed with our site, thats your tough luck, we helped DEFEAT a Traitor, who thought our memory of him had long forgotten what he did. He had ideas of a Liberal Utopia too, right here in the good ole US of A, but enough of us in Jesusland said NO thank you ‘Hanoi John ‘take yourself and your commie buddy jane and get the hell out of here.

If you have come here to spread your liberal poison you will leave with some body parts missing. So have at jerk.

Mark

Mavis, regrets that you’re not impressed. You don’t impress me either.

Interesting statistic. 98% huh? Where did you get this? From your head? Should I also mention how to spell “hypocrisy”. Okay, I will. Your definition of patriotism is also silly, because the ephemeral qualities you describe as “values” are temporal, always changing and mutable. You described a political party, not patriotism. Whatever patriotism is, it’s something more than your superficial and glossy definition of it.

But you’ve said more than you know. If these are the origins of your patriotism, then you’re a social creature who requires the constant infusion of unanimity to make you comfortable. I would guess this is pretty standard stuff on The Left, which considers struggling to convince people through the Democratic process to be disposable mechanism of Old America.

I’ve also discovered that posters who describe this blog as nasty (I’m one of the nastiest) have a delicacy from their sniffy disdain for the views expressed here. There’s frequently a lot of fire on this blog, and it comes from both sides. If you want something more pleasant, visit a blog that shares all your views.

Mitch came here because he chose not to be an instrument and cipher of The Statism which infects present-day Canada. I have some experience of this myself. Freedom isn’t a “value”, it’s a quality. You either have it or you don’t, and I suspect this why Mitch decided to leave.

First of all, 98% of the bluster about leaving for Canada is just that, bluster. Don’t take it too seriously.

Secondly, I think the group of you have run into a little hypocracy here. A person’s patriotism comes from a sense of shared values. Once your countrymen no longer share your values, you will likely feel little allegience toward them or your nation (some folks have a foolishly low threshold). Your friend Mitch felt his countrymen had lost sight of/scorned his values. So he ran away. If you’re going to impune the patriotism of fleeing liberals than Mitch deserves the same treatment – and to pretend he was refugee running from Stalin of the West is just a bit overdramatic.

The blog is pretty nasty, John. I’m not impressed. (Though some of your storm chasing looked pretty cool.)

You made a choice to escape oppression, not unlike the millions who came here before you. Of course, it may not be the oppression that our forefathers suffered in Europe or Asia, or whereever but it was an oppressive lifestyle you chose to leave, nonetheless.

Today is the day we honor the veterans, living and dead who so honored us with their service in order that we may live free. As has been said so many times before, freedom isn’t free; it carries tremendous responsibilities and one of those was exercised recently by Americans who saw a danger in our future if a traitor were allowed to preside over our nation.

Who knows what road this country would have taken under John Kerry. But from the perspective of the majority of our veterans, it wouldn’t have been one they wanted their children and grandchildren to go down. That is why so many of them served America when called upon in the fight to defeat Kerry. The vets did us proud once again.

For those who are sucking their thumbs as they talk about going or are actually making the move North, pick up the tempo. We prefer people in this country who work to make us strong and act to right what is wrong. The sooner we are rid of you, the better.

Like fairweather friends, we have fairweather citizens here, too. Thank God, they will never prevail with their weak-kneed agendas.

Mitch…you didn’t say how long you’ve been in the U.S. but I’ll offer you a sincere “Welcome” anyway.

The irony is that I was a ‘red state’ kind of guy who was fed up of living in a very ‘blue state’ kind of country. Go figure.

I say leave SOB, I will stay right here in Jesusland,but…. and that begs another question if we the RED states are in Jesusland, what is that awful Blue area.,,

I live on the edge of the Breadbasket, and if they want to seceed then how in the hell are they going to feed themselves after all most food stuffs comes from jesusland, so if they seceed then screw’em. Let ‘em eat cake.

Mark

Leaving would require guts, imagination and a willingness to face the unfamiliar. If you have these qualities, you aren’t a Lefty.

I like Lawrence O’Donnell’s observation that the Red States are parasites and welfare cheats. This repulsive moron claims that the Blues subsidize the Reds with their tax dollars. I guess Larry hasn’t seen the county map.

I live in a solidly Blue State, and I’m going to demand that I be paid for my property when the fools around me decide to secede. They want to be a part of Canada. Good. They have no idea what that would be like.

But don’t hold your breath waiting for these people leaving America because if they got gut to do what they said they will do then they are not who they are at the first place.