A Political Pop Quiz
Posted By John Moore on February 23, 2004
I received this in the mail. It speaks for itself:
[Thanks to Ed Kostiha for providing this]
See Vets Against Kerry for more information.
[note: originally from Counterpunch ]
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Did Kerry Write His Own Silver Star Citation?
In our little part of the Vietnam war, especially during Operation Giant Slingshot, ASPB’s such as mine often operated completely independently on patrol and escort missions. The POIC, such as me, was responsible for filing after-action reports with the Task Group Commander who was generally a Navy LT or LT (j.g). In conjunction therewith, we also had responsibility for drafting (not signing) recommendations for awards. In the action I mentioned, I drafted recommendations for awards for my engineer, a 20MM BMSN Gunner, and myself. Yeah, I agree! It was probably self-serving but my largely teenage crew was not authors! These recommendations did not specify the level of the award which was left to the TG CO or other upstream brass. I don’t know at what command level the actual award determination was made. I do know of several cases where similar recommendations resulted in no action by command authorities. This was also true for the awards we’re discussing here, except for two guys who had to be med-evaced after the action. Another thing that affected this was damage to the boat required our short-handed return to Dong Tam for repairs. This allowed the time to do the writing which, in the normal course of patrol duty (12-16 hours a day), was just not possible. At least in my little piece of the war, there were many gallant acts that never were written up, not only for lack of witnesses, but, simply for lack of time and energy.
As it relates to Kerry, the reason for even discussing it is to point out the “possibility” that Kerry could have acted in a self-aggrandizing manner, which from what I’ve read I believe he “probably” did. Although in the greater scheme of things this is probably no big deal, it is something that warrants debate if the person involved is attempting to capitalize on his Vietnam service for political advantage.
My recent study is bringing me to the conclusion that JFK-erry is nothing more than an idol-worshipping, want-to-be JFK-ennedy who deliberately created a combat record in the shortest time possible in an attempt to emulate the “real” JFK and then got himself out of country post haste! Furthermore, it’s interesting that his CO, George Elliot, is quoted as saying the he didn’t know whether to recommend a medal or a court-martial. Didn’t Halsey say something similar about the “real” JFK?
Where I served in country it was SOP, when you took fire (especially B40 fire), to run off a couple of hundred yards, lay 20MM, 50 Cal, M19, and M79 fire on the target zone, and then make a close-in run concentrating all available weaponry on the target. After suppressing fire we’d call in the grunts (the poor bastards) to sweep the area for KIAs and WIAs. We were ordered to “never” beach a boat and go ashore in a live fire zone except for the purpose of saving or preserving the lives of our forces and then only when we had chopper cover or were covered by another boat. Believe me, these boats made great targets especially in daylight. As others have said he should have been, at a minimum, reprimanded if not relieved and court martialed.
His subsequent participation in VVAW was probably nothing more than pique at returning to the “World” to find that he wasn’t anointed “the” conquering war hero, wasn’t applauded and revered by his Brahmin buddies, and wasn’t immediately swept into the center of power politics as was his idol. His senate voting record on defense and intelligence continues to reflect this resentment, his far left tax and social (istic?) philosophy continue to reflect JFK-ennedy’s, and his consistent flip-flopping on the issues constitute an all consuming desire to attain for himself the reverence for and legacy of the “real” JFK. Integrity and principals be damned! The interests of the American people be damned!
Keep your pot on and sit on a flak jacket if JFK-erry is elected POTUS,
Tom Mortensen, BM2 CTF 117 and 116, RVN 68-69
funny stuff
Mort, that is almost verbatim from the mass email debunked on snopes.
Kerry was a war hero in Vietnam. He also was an ass after the war and as ass as a Senator, but that doesnt mean he wasnt a war hero.
Let’s attack the man’s current character, and lets not disparage his heroism. That would backfire badly.
Bush wasn’t a saint back in the day either, and neither was I, but people grow up, people change.
Kerry is a terrible candidate NOW, so why bother with some attack on him way back when?
Morto’s comments about how Kerry might have written up his own report that led to his Silver Star is interesting. The citation describes him bravely shooting a Viet Cong soldier and saving his boat and crew, but a description of the event reported at http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org/ states that after his boat’s machine gunner hit and wounded the fleeing Viet Cong as he darted behind a hootch Kerry leaped from the boat and dashed in to administer a “coup de grace” to the wounded Viet Cong. Described in these terms, of course, his action is technically a war crime and wouldn’t have won him a medal.
That’s pretty damaging for Kerry. Simple, direct, to the point and 100% true. That will hurt him.
I can speak from personal experience that I’ve seen one example of a guy getting a commendation I know he wrote himself up for; he was one of the worst specimens of 2d Lieutenant I’d ever seen, but he could sure schmooze the battalion staff.
Which isn’t to say that Kerry did the same thing; who can say? The most interesting aspect to me is that we don’t see the same media frenzy and demands that he “prove” he didn’t do it by producing documents or witness testimony. Has Kerry even released all his military records? I don’t think so. What’s fair for GWB should be fair for JFK, no? Funny, that.
It is plain from Mr. Mortenson’s “what if” scenario that nothing is going to change his opinion about John Kerry. I suspect this has more to do with the fact that Mr. Kerry is not George Bush and is the Democratic nominee, than with the fact that Mr. Kerry is Mr. Kerry. The Political Pop Quiz is funny and very creative, but only the politically naive would fail to realize that to understand the reasoning behind a senator’s vote one needs to know the circumstances involved. I don’t know the circumstances but you can bet that I will research it and not rely on political ads, cartoons or punditry to educate me.
Kerry a war hero? In 4 whole months of combat?
You’ve gotta be sh*tting me.
Kerry is a fool that can easily be made to look like a raging idiot if only the press would wake up and ask some questions. That, I believe, is not going to happen. He is a fool and a phony taking advantage of everything and anything a simple citzen holds dear. Typical democrat.
As a Sergeant on duty with HQ command. I witnessed
countless brown-nosers who would suck up to the Company Commander. Had one guy that would come in every day or so and tell the Major his heroic actions. Finally got that medal that he had been fishing for. The guys in the company claim he did not do half the stuff he claimed to have done.
Kerry puts me in mind of that kind of guy.
From one Purple Heart to any others. I doubt this guys metal in civilian life much less combat. My guess is JFK placed fire in a dead enemy combatant. Also was he the only one firing at the boat. Some attack! And I’ll bet most of us spent more than two days off for one Heart much less three. What a fancy pants he is.
When I first heard the story of Kerry beaching his boat, and running off into the woods to “deal with” the VC, I wondered
1. Is it SOP in the U.S. Navy to make your vessel a “sitting duck”?
2. I thought James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise was the only commander to abandon his vessel and go into a hot zone – shouldn’t Kerry have sent in one of his crew to chase down the VC (or maybe he shouldn’t have pursued them at all – just left the area)?
3. Maybe Kerry was more of an animal (like Mother in Full Metal Jacket) than a hero.
4. Depending on exactly what happened with the VC that he “ran down” (for example, if he murdered a wounded soldier who was willing to surrender), it is quite possible that Kerry is a war criminal, which might explain his Senate testimony in the 70s.
In addition, a couple of days ago I read that Kerry had returned to that river in Vietnam and filmed a “re-enactment” of the incident, and frequently watches the film at home. Sounds pretty morbid to me.
I fought for a year in the delta in the PBR’s of TF 116. As I read the accounts of the events for which Kerry received his two decorations, my reaction was, “Bronze Star? Silver Star?” Those kinds of events happened in TF 116 all the time without any awards being distributed at all. But at the time of Kerry’s tour, the Swifts and TF 115 were brand new to the delta and to combat (they’d been doing coatal patrol exclusively until Adm. Zumwalt brought them up into the reiers), and looking to establish some heroes in a hurry. Kerry was in the right place at the right time, but he’s no hero in the eyes of any PBR sailor.
I spent 66-67 with PCF Division-105 in 2Corps as well as another tour in 70-71.Kommie-kerry was in the same Navy I was in and we had certain rules,in fact some of them we felt were pretty dam restrictine.Beaching his boat was a goog way to get the other five souls as well as himself light-up in a big way.We were taught in Swift Boat training to use our speed and fire power to didi the hell out of a kill zone regroup then make high speed firing runs until we were able to suppress incomming fire.We were never to beach a boat unless inserting troops or to keep it from sinking and never in the kill zone of an ambush site.I believe kommie-kerry should have been brought up on charges unless there are some other details I am not aware of.
SAT CONG,
CHIEF
mike, thought you would like this
love, mom
John Kerry on John Kerry
Thank you for your telling animated cartoon on John Kerry. Once again, as was proved in the Toys for Iraq campaign, the blogosphere will show its distributed decentralized muscles and expose Kerry for who he really is. I don’t see…
Telling the truth
I’ve seen this all over the blogosphere but I got it from here…
The reason why I’m interested in learning more about what happened, along with Kerry’s military records, is that all the “facts” are just so abstract.
He got some pretty high level medals for shooting *one* enemy rocketeer? Reminds me a bit of Lyndon Johnson who got a silver star for never actually having been in combat. Lyndon was famous for the silver star and use it at every opportunity but the whole background story behind the award was shown to be a complete fabrication and that he didn’t deserve the medal at all. If Kerry want’s to use his medals as a plus in the campaign, then he should be willing to discuss them completely.
He got 3 purple hearts for wounds but nobody can seem to say where, and how severe, the wounds are. Just what were those wound? Are we talking a skinned knee here? A “shell fragment in the eye” a la Frank from M.A.S.H.? I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I’d suggest that he should be proud of his wounds and willing to back everything up with documentation. Well at least unless there’s nothing to be proud of at any rate.
And the four months in combat. From what I understand he was able to get out of Vietnam because he did in fact get three wounds. That’s a pretty major point IMHO. If the wounds in question were ridiculous then his entire service is transformed from one of heroism to that of an opportunist.
Which is it? What were those wounds? Why do I have a feeling that they’ll amount to nothing more then minor flesh wounds that most other soldiers couldn’t even imagine would be worth a purple heart?
Do you know where the Memorial statue is now?
I heard that it was being sent to Ft Hood in Texas?
I think it is a very moving Memorial to our troops in Iraq & to our country. Thanks for posting the photo.
Darn, I failed to mark an article and check it out. The author quoted a professor who had interviewed Adm. Elmo Zumwalt. Zumwalt was NOT flattering about Kerry and said something like ‘he’s too fond of killing civilians’. Wish I could verify this–anybody?
Have you seen this? bp
Snopes.com has the scoop on Kerry’s medal. All of the sailors present at the incident say Kerry saved their boat from being blown up of a VC rocket. The VC was running away from the boat, but there was a likely chance he was running to take cover behind a hooch so he could use his rocket on Kerry’s boat. Fleeing was not an option, as that would have stil left the boat within firing range of the VC’s rocket.
Kerry is vulnerable on other points in his political career. Let’s not resort to slandering his war record.
If I had as many skeletons in my closet as Kerry, I wouldn’t run for President in the first place, because I would know that they would all come out. So whatever is he thinking of? And the big appeal of this guy to the Democrats is that he’s “electable”?
Some people are relying too much on Snoopes.
Snoopes sources seem to be limited to the Boston Globe (!) and the Douglas Brinkley biography of Kerry.
Brinkley’s motives and integrity are currently being questioned. He started with Kerry’s own incomplete autobiography and admitted that he interviewed Kerry for only 4 hours. Read the reviews on Amazon.com
It seems to me that Kerry should be asked to make his medical records available so we can see how terrible his war wounds are. Three serious wounds really should make him eligible to leave Viet Nam faster than Al Gore did. But – if not – not.
If Kerry did administer a “coup de gras” to a wounded VC then all I can say is read Article 3.1.a below. Then contact the Hague to request an investigation.
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Article 1
The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.
Article 2
In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.
The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.
Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
I was a company aid man in the Korean War, 1951-52. As such I, and all my fellow infantrymen, rescued the wounded and dead, fired our weapons at the enemy and performed our assigned and expected duties to the best of our abilities. If the literally hundreds of routine combat events I personally witnessed were medal-worthy, we would have been the most highly decorated people ever.
I cannot speak specifically about either JFK, but I did see flaky, cowardly officers get medals, including the Purple Heart for the most minor of wounds.
The sum is: Just the possession of a medal is not proof of heroism. Shooting the enemy, if justified, is our duty and is not extraordinary.
INTERESTING.
Kerry’s war record will NEVER be made public because the media doesn’t want it to be. He will NEVER be asked difficult questions, because no one in the media has any interest in the truth about any slimy democrat. He will get away with murder in this election, because he will NEVER be put in a position to explain himself. Anyone who has a brain knows there are two sets of rules: one for democrats; one for republicans. Oh and the demoncrats make the rules.
I , for one, have thought Kerry’s “3 wounds and your out” loophole to exit the quagmire of Vietnam after 4 months into his tour of duty sounded a little suspicious and too convenient not to question. Even to the point of maybe suspecting his third wound if it wasn’t the shrapnel in the wazoo incident. Knife pricking an arm sure beats shooting one’s own foot.
However, recently, I have read that Kerry served two tours of duty in Vietnam. Anyone know the real lowdown on this?
Even Air Force regulars who had served their full year tour of duty in VN used to pull every legally allowed trick in the book to escape that second TOD in VN. People were even reluctant to accept a cushy overseas TOD in Europe, for example, because the powers that be might have you and your family all packed and enroute to that sweetheart TOD and when you arrived at the departure base, scoop up the active duty Air Force personnel and reroute them to Viernam for a surprise second TOD for a year.
In those nightmare days of fighting in Vietnam, the unwinnable for political reasons war, military people serving in Vietnam found it especially discouraging when a “short-timer”, having nearly completed his year of duty, was killed or seriously wounded.
IF Kerry had previously and honorably served a full tour of duty, and even IF he self-inflicted one or more wounds, I can’t fault him for exiting VN anyway he or others could scheme to do it. Such was the norm for practically, if not entirely, everyone back then.
A year spent in Vietnam just wasn’t that fun or fulfilling! The non-heroes welcome when returning to the homeland didn’t make it any more appealling!
as a soldier currently serving in Iraq, I can say that is is very common for upper enlisted and officers to put in for thier own awards…that is how all of our senior NCO’s and officers got their bronze stars…yet never left our building.
Hmmm.
According to Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp) Kerry served from around December 1968 to March 1969. Four months total.
1st purple heart:
“The “stinging piece of heat” Kerry felt in his arm had been caused by a piece of shrapnel, a wound for which he was awarded a Purple Heart. The injury was not serious — Brinkley notes that Kerry went on a regular Swift boat patrol the next day with a bandage on his arm, and the Boston Globe quoted William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral, as recalling that “It was not a very serious wound at all.” ”
2nd purple heart:
“Kerry felt a piece of hot shrapnel bore into his left leg. With blood running down the deck … Brinkley noted that, as in the previous case, “Kerry’s wound was not serious enough to require time off from duty.” ”
3rd purple heart:
“While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. … Asked about the severity of the wounds, Kerry said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty.”
Then he got out of Vietnam by:
“Although there was no hard-and-fast rule, U.S. military procedure generally allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to request reassignment away from a combat zone, so Kerry talked to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which he served. Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Horne forwarded a request on Kerry’s behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to “duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C.” Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York.”
Frankly, considering that the sources for all this are extremely favorable to Kerry, this is pretty minor stuff. Perhaps, only perhaps, his conduct for which he got the Bronze Star was worthwhile. But I’m rather unimpressed by all this nonsense concerning his purple hearts, his early transfer and the Silver Star.
Now to be honest about all this I’m only 39 so I wasn’t old enough, by a lot, to serve in Vietnam. I did serve in the Marines, but it was a long time after Vietnam. But my father *did*. He served there for two tours as a U.S. Army Warrant Officer engineer on a river tugboat moving supply and **ammunition** barges up the rivers. Comparing this stuff to the stories he’s told me of having to deal with taking rifle and rocket fire, not to mention dealing with mines, while moving barges loaded with artillery shells leaves me a little flat.
Just a little. :/
“It is plain from Mr. Mortenson’s “what if” scenario that nothing is going to change his opinion about John Kerry.”
Mr. Mortenson probably won’t change his opinion about John Kerry. Of course he isn’t going to be easily swayed from something he feels so strongly about. I mean, c’mon! Who do you think he is? John Kerry?
If Dubya put up his dental records for all to see, Kerry should put up his path report for his prostate surgery. Tit for tat. For Dubya, it’s guilty till proven innocent. I’m afraid the post by Mama Luisa is correct. If the press won’t push for his service records, they’ll stay sealed. If Kerry had clean records, you can be sure he’d milk them to death, just like he does now with telling all who will listen, that he served in Vietnam. He obviously has something to hide.
CS, Cam Ranh Bay, 1971-’72
I wasn’t going to say anything here but this thing just BEGS for recognition.
Kerry sure picked someone to pattern after when he picked Kennedy. It has STILL never been explained to this day what Kennedy was doing in the area his boat was in when he broke it in half. When people started asking questions that couldn’t be answered, Ol Joe whipped his film cronies together and made a bullshit movie about the courageous and daring exploits of his little “Babe in the Woods.”
Although he DID do a pretty good job with the Russians and most of the presidency, he still had a few blemishes on his career, especially with Marilyn Monroe “mysteriously” ODing on booze and drugs. They never DID find the “doctor” who was there and supposedly tried to “revive” her, either.
Kerry is just another piss-in-the-pants liberal looking for a name. His wife won’t take his name (can’t say I blame her) so he wants the presidency to have it.
Rotsa Ruck, Yankee!
None of this really lights my candle. A lot of people comment as if they’ve got the facts but for the most part… whatever.
Bonfire of the Vanities – Week 35
It’s the burning time of the week – the time for the best of the worst of the best to surface amongst some rather stinky flames. Week 35. (Somebody get me a drumroll?) First, visit Red Wheelbarrow for some roasted chicken (mmmm) and, wow, some roasted …
GOD HELP US IF THE ASS/HOLE GETS TO BE PREZ. WHY CAN’T THESE ARTICALS GET IN TO THE NEWS
MEDIA.OOOPS I KNOW WHY OUR NEWS MEDIA IS GOING SOCIALISTIC, AND GOD HELP US THERE TOO.
PAUL ( CRIS ) PEMBERTON X-V/NAM VET 67/68
I guess I think it’s better to at least go to Viet Nam and fight and report back to the USA the truth of what you saw than for your father using his political and military ties to keep you out of Viet Nam. signed: Not a Coward Lover.
Read this to see what your comment really means.
Those of us who served in Vietnam and in military air understood Bush’s honorable service quite well, and we know why he didn’t need “daddy’s influence” to get in. What we have trouble understanding is why John Kerry came back and then chose to lie, under oath, in a manner that painted all of us a baby killers and our government as one which authorized atrocies (which it didn’t), without ever once mentioning the VC policy of murdering the families of those in villages who refused to go along with them.
He also didn’t mention the 3000 civilians who were summarily executed in the killing fields outside of Hue during the short time the VC held onto it.
We fail to understand how someone with his education could not grasp even the most fundamental principles of warfare and American strategy, so that he would make absurd charges like we were trying to “Vietnamize the Vietnamese.”
Benedict Arnold was a war hero.
Kerry served honorably (although in no way qualifies as a hero), and then got the heck out of dodge as fast as he could (4 months in combat compared a draftee’s 13 month minimum). When he came back for ‘Nam he wasn’t particularly bothered by it, according to his friends. But then he discovered a cause which would launch him into political office – Vietnam Veterans Against the War – the same group which plotted to assassinate 9 senators and which received a lot of funding and obeyed the demands of Jane Fonda.
Kerry is no Benedict Arnold – Arnold was a much better soldier.
I just wanted to give my perspective on Snopes.com. This is only my opinion, but please, check it out for yourselves. I know it has been touched on here, but I wanted to correlate Snopes.com into the mixing pot of the liberal media. Along with NBC, ABC, CNN, MTV, basically most newspapers, and all of the other left wing sympathetically based media. If you go to Snopes.com, and look for the truth behind all of the evil, back-handed, immoral, sneaky, and just downright wrong things ‘Slick-Willy’ Clinton did in his eight years as President, and his tenure as Governor, and what his disgusting pig of a wife has done, how many things do you think Snopes has researched? And in what light does this research reflect on the Clinton’s? The answer,…One. One researched claim. The research is mixed, but altogether sheds a positive light on the Clinton’s, (if that’s possible!). To me, that is appalling. One claim. There are already ten or more on GWB, mostly making the President look inept, and calling it the truth. Another thing I found interesting and made me raise one eyebrow is that Kerry, (who’s head is the size of a Macy’s Day parade balloon), has 5 researched article listed for him, all shedding him in a positive light. I think I know where Barbara and David Mikkelson of Snope’s. com’s vote will be in November. Just remember this when browsing through Snopes. I’m sure a lot of it is true, but everything I have seen has a ‘Dumb-ocratic’ spin and/or view.
So go to Snope’s.com, where the Left is Right!
As a closing statement to all of you Clintonere’s out there who proclaim praises to the economic genius of the Clinton era, I say this. The economy would have tanked six years earlier if it we not for the Dot-com boom. That was the only reason for the Clinton success. Once the Dot-com’s failed, so did Clintonomics. Keep that in mind when you vote ‘Dumb-ocratic’, you are saying, “Yeah, I want to pay MORE than 33% of my pay to taxes, to help some 4 time loser on welfare get a fifth, and maybe even a sixth and seventh chance. I’ll give all of my money away to help this country along in becoming a Socialist nation.”
Snopes says that Mr. Ed was a zebra! It is proven false of course by many sources, but
mainly alan young himself. “Ed was a Palimino
named “Bamboo Harvester”…Snopes credibility
goes dooowwwn the tubes.
George Elliot was the commander who wrote Kerry up for the Silver Star. In all his criticism of Kerry for his postwar activities, Elliot has never criticized his combat record; in fact, he appeared on Kerry’s behalf during the 1996 Senate election and said the Silver Star was well deserved.
This is how Elliot described Kerry in his 1969 fitness reports: “In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, Lt. j.g. Kerry was unsurpassed. . . . His bearing and appearance are above reproach.”